On Aug 30, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Jan Wysocki wrote:
> Thanks for your clear postings Derek. It's good to see those who
> understand the basics of electricity haven't deserted the list.
>
> I've had a look at the website and have no doubt that fitting one of
> Michael Heth's kits will improve starting on older bikes*, nor that
> they're well made. However, I do wonder why he doesn't quote test
> figures.
>
>
Hi Jan,
Again these replies to the ST list are not meant as a boatload of
sales blather but because good sensible questions are being asked they
are helping me with my site documentation. I have a couple more
unusual type products coming (unusual in that no one else promotes the
type of solution I promote) and so I have to get my act together to
answer the unasked questions in site visitors minds.
So-
Although I'm trying to assemble some hard numbers by documenting the
voltage drops and the current flow before and after, other desirable
numbers are just not obtainable. Such as the difference in measurable
impedance between an OEM lead and my replacement lead. The actual
number is just too small to be measurable without laboratory level
equipment but the result is clearly seen before and after (I was
exceedingly bummed in 2002 when I couldn't measure it with my $250
meter).
I tend to offer the "proof of the pudding" in the major change in
starting ability as the documentation. If it was just a clean the
contacts and carry-on type of thing then it would be specified
throughout the industry, much like the normal chain and sprocket care
advice; continuously lube/adjust etc.
But it's not because you get a small almost not worth the trouble
benefit from the cleaning
and you get an immediate improvement with the bandaid; which is to
install a new fresh undamaged battery. Your bike starts better and the
dealer has made a sale. So that's where you will always find the
industry recommendation - buy something (hopefully big). And I'm not
ragging on the motorcycle dealers here, they are only doing what the
vehicle (both automotive and motorcycle) electrical industry
recommends as the cure for poor starting.
Motolectric is the first to suggest that getting rid of the source of
the large losses is the better route to take. And my claim that the
kit pays for itself is based on the fact that it will allow you to get
the maximum life out of your battery.
Cleaning the contacts will bring about a small bit of improvement. But
it won't move you into the big smile territory you get when your bike
leaps to life in a second or 2. The circuits are just plain under-
engineered for the job they need to do.
Also - It is my completely undocumented (at this point) assumption
that conducting metals change characteristics after they have been
used to flow electricity for a while. This is based both in the
degradation of the OEM circuits on all motorcycles (the engineers
plainly thought they had engineered a suitable circuit) and on the
quite recent tactic (last 15 years or so) in the specialty audio
industry to "break in the wires". This entails playing music or sine
waves of some sort through the sophisticated wires you have bought for
your audio system until "they break in" and sound their best. The fact
that they sound different after a while means the wires change
characteristics. Now in the audio world that may mean they sound
better but you have to use more amp to get the same level of sound
pressure. In starting a motorcycle it may mean that they now need more
amperage to get the job done and since the starting circuit has fixed
values (wattage of starter motor etc.) we get poor performance. This
is all speculation but it might be the root cause of the near
universal problem with starting bikes after a few years even with a
new battery.
> Corrosion of the terminals and the join between the terminals and
> copper
> cable will increase the resistance of the starter circuit. How does
> that compare with the resistance of the kit ? Also, how much
> resistance
> does surface oxidation of the cable add? In theory, surface oxidation
> reduces the cross section of wires, but I'd be suprised if the cross
> section was reduced by even 1%. I'd also be interested to know just
> how
> much oxygen is present in copper of normal purity and how its
> resistance
> compares with OFC copper. Also, how much extra resistance is
> introduced
> by the use of brass or steel terminals?
>
> Like Nick Woods, I'm a fan of Odyssey batteries. The 9 year old PC680
> in my M900 is still spinning the engine nicely. When the battery in my
> ST gets tired, I'd like to replace it with an Odyssey. It's a shame
> that
> Odyssey doesn't make its batteries in more sizes.
>
I worked with Odyssey this summer to try and remedy that. I researched
the situation and then sent them a full listing of the sizes they
would need to build to supply all the 4 valve Ducatis. The sales
manager has said he will be pressing for that type of expansion of
their line. But they had just landed a substantial contract to supply
their battery type to the US military for one of the armored vehicles.
The OEM battery ran the electrics for something like 40 minutes under
combat use and then died. The Odyssey ran it for something like 11
hours or so. So they got a huge order and all of their attention was
focussed on the "real order" instead of focussing on a speculative
order like "hey, maybe we'll sell some of these new size batteries if
we make them etc.". Based on the state of the world economy-wise I
think they made the right choice.
> I was lucky to find one
> that's only a shade thicker than Monster's original, I haven't
> measured
> up the space available for an ST battery. Mind you more companies are
> producing Absorbed Glass Matt motorcycle batteries now, e.g. Westco,
> but I don't know if they have the same characteristics as the Odyssey.
> They do increase the range of sizes available to us.
>
>
Yes, the characteristic you want to look for until Odyssey makes a
size that fits is a higher concentration (vs. the industry norm)of
thin plates of high purity lead and a somewhat "spiked" acid level.
(can't find my notes with the actual numbers of acid levels right this
second). But by using a higher purity of lead in their plate,s Odyssey
can use a stronger acid and that gets them a small uptick in actual
electrical creation during the chemical reaction. That's also why you
should use their special charger (or another specialized higher
voltage charger) to get the maximum life out of one of their
batteries. A battery tender will not do the job as it is enginnered to
safely charge wet cell lead acid batteries and not AGM or Gel cell
type. You are still better off than not using any battery charger
while the bike is parked but you are not maximizing the life of your
battery. They (Odyssey) claim that proper charging and use of their
battery can result in a 10 year life span. Contarst that (a $100
battery) to my 1 a year experience with wet cell (and the
> * Personally, I carefully clean the metal oxides and salts off all the
> terminals with files or emery first. I imagine that that's included in
> the instructions with the kits. If that did't work, then I'd suspect
> the crimped connections and maybe replace the cables
>
> --
>
Thanks,
M./
Michael Heth
mheth@motolectric.com
(415) 992-7840
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